The first international conference
22nd & 23rd of May 2004

 

According to the FCI  Breed Standard

 

      

       

    

 

Promoted by D. Vervenne and organized by the Irish Setter Club vzw Belgium

 

 ON THE TERRAINS AND CLUBHOUSE

OF THE IRISH SETTER CLUB vzw BELGIUM 

AND THE HISTORICAL BUILDINGS OF FORT II

 

16 participating countries

 

 

116 participants

 

 

 The historical buildings of  Fort II

             

 

 

  

The conference panel  :

From left to right :

Mr. Ronny Blomme ( Belgium )  Chairman of "Ierse Setter Club" v.z.w. België - Mr. Terry O'Leary ( Ireland )  - Mrs. Ann Millington ( England ) -

 Mrs. Pauline Perriam ( England ) - Miss Trudy Walsh ( Ireland ) -  Mr. Dirk Vervenne ( Belgium )  en  Mrs. Patricia Brigden ( England )

          

 

   

THE ROLE OF THE IRISH RED SETTER WITHIN RED & WHITES 

IN THE PAST AND IN THE FUTURE.

 By Mr. Dirk Vervenne ( Belgium )

Breeder of Irish Red & White Setters

Illustrations in this blueprint and on overhead projection
 have been placed on our disposal by courtesy of

Mrs. Anne  Bailey  ( GB )

Mrs. Margaret Sierakowsky  ( GB )

Mr. D. Vervenne  ( B )

As most people know, I’m only a breeder of Irish Red & White Setters.  I do not have any official function, I’m not a judge, just somebody with deep interest in our breed.

We never bred anything else as Red & Whites.  We have them since 1985 and had up to now altogether 16 litters.  It’s maybe useful  to know that from these 16 litters, there were 15 different combinations, and we do not have a breeding policy which is focussed on a particular type of dog.  Our breeding policy is the one of diversity in respect to the breed standard.  That kind of policy  has given us a better general survey on the breed. 

As our interest in the breed always goes further than our Belgian borders, we went several times to Ireland and we were very lucky still having been just in time to meet those very knowledgeable persons who knew the breed since 50 years and even more.  We listened to them and what I will tell you today and what I will show you is coming from these persons in the Country of Origin.

From the first day Red & Whites went in fair numbers out of Ireland in the years 1980, there has always been a certain confusion in understanding the Red & White by many people all over the world.  The breed was not known, many people thought it didn’t even exist.  Fanciers, judges in the show ring or in trials did not understand how an “Irish Setter – a Red & White -” could be different to the well known Irish Red Setter we are used to see every day.

Yes there is a certain difference, although the Irish Red Setter and the Red & White have in the past always been interlinked.  In this speech I will try to put both, Reds and Red & Whites in their right context.  During the last years there have been, on international level,  examples enough of misinterpretations and misunderstandings.  It’s one of the main reasons why I have chosen for speaking about the role of the Irish Red Setter within our breed.

 

      

 Therefore, I think it’s useful to go back to the earlier years, starting in the years around 1790 from when we know with certitude the information is correct. 

There was in that time a certain Miss Lidwell who had very good dogs, one of them was the dog York I ( Old York ) and another was the bitch Stella.  In these times there was no such separation between an Irish Red Setter and a Red & White and many times they were mixed, being  ‘Irish Setters’.  All these dogs on the first page of that “big pedigree” are to be found in today’s Reds as well as in Red & Whites.  

 

BIG  PEDIGREE

 

It’s very interesting to see how most of the Irish Setters were : Reds and Red & Whites were very similar, which is normal because they were one big family.  Of course, some people were fanciers of the Red one, others of the Red & White, and still others mixed them, which was in many cases a totally normal practice.  Some paintings illustrate how some dogs were looking like, and it’s interesting to see old pictures of Irish Red Setters :  there is a very high resemblance to the Red & Whites. 

It gives a good idea how all these dogs looked like:  For those who know some history of the Irish Setter, dogs like Rattle, Aileen, Frisco, Grouse II, Quail, and of course Champion Palmerston, Ch. Shandon,Sullivan, Ch. Winifred ( owned by Mrs. Ingle-Bepler, “Rheola” ), Fredglass  etc…are well known.  That typical general appearance of the Irish Setter, Red or Red & White, was very common and even known far outside the Country of Origin.

 

   

An Italian judge, who was not able to come to the conference, sent me a copy of some pages about the Irish Setter, to be found in an Italian dog book “Manuale del Cacciatore Italiano” published in 1897.  There is a portrait of an Irish Red Setter showing clearly again how an Irish Setter was in these times.  ( For those who are interested, there is that big pedigree of an Irish Red Setter dog, champion Gruagach, born in 1860 and died in 1878. All these well known dogs are in it’s pedigree and are the ancestors of today’s Reds and Red & Whites ).  

So, because the Red and the Red & White always have been interlinked,  many of these Red Setters carried Red & White blood and consequently both had many times about the same characteristics, although the Red Setter was sometimes more racy.  I would like to go once back to that so well known Palmerston : he was an example of a kind of Irish Red Setter who was not like most of the Setters in that time.  It’s known his owner was desperate because he did not do it’s work on the way his owner expected and he would have been thrown away if there would not have been an American who brought him over to the States.  That dog was tall and – as can be seen – of an other type.  He became the example of American Irish Setter breeding and also the inspiration of breeding a specific type of dog outside Ireland which turned out into what is called today a “show setter”.  The picture is not a drawing nor a painting, but a real picture taken of Palmerston at a very respectable age.  It’s believed to be the only existing real picture of him.  

But look how interesting it is to see one of his sons, the also well known Champion Garryowen : although it’s a painting, we can see very clearly again that typical type of many of the Irish Setters of the past centuries. Maybe – I don’t know with certitude of course – Palmerston was an exception in type, but it’s sure he produced at least certain dogs being again of that more rustic type of Irish Setter.  The more, I do not think that the painter, W. Osborne, would paint a dog with on certain places white hair if it really wasn’t there.

But things changed between 1850 and 1900.  Some factors in that period were decisive for the future of the Irish Setter.

1. There was first of all the entrance of dog exhibitions and hunting competitions, called field trials.  In the first period of these events a difference between “dogs for show” and “dogs for trial” did not exist; there was not even a difference made between whole reds and parti-coloured Irish Setters.

2. There was at the same time also the arrival of many Americans who were fascinated of the whole Red Setter, which means that almost everybody started to breed Red Setters.

3. As popularity of whole Red Setters was growing in such proportions, it became almost an evidence that a Breed Club for Red Setters was founded.  This happened in 1882.  A breed standard for the Red Setter was made and officially recognized by the Irish Kennel Club in 1886.  That breed standard said that the Irish Setter should be of a whole red colour.  The Red & White was ‘forgotten’. 

From this time the Irish Red Setter had it’s own development went it’s own way.  But in fact, because of that decision, during 100 years only 50 % of the truth has been told, and only these 50 % had all facilities for development.  There was not spoken anymore about the other 50% of the Irish Setter, the Red & White.

We know the consequences : during the last 100 years the Irish Red Setter who had all facilities developed in two different directions; on one hand into real specialised working setters and competition setters, on the other hand into real exhibition dogs specialised in glittering appearance.  Two different kinds of cultures, conceptions about the ‘Irish Setter’ raised , both, going in some cases into very high extremes, especially during the last decades, with the mentality of “what can I do to win at fast trials”, and “what can I do to win at shows”. 

Some pictures illustrate the first signs of the development of these 2 different conceptions, although in that time they could not know of course the further evolution into extreme standpoints : during the first decades of shows, all dogs were working dogs anyway, and differences in conceptions didn’t exist.  The first picture is taken on one of the early trials in 1915 in County Donegal.  On the left Rev. Meehan’s “Coanach”, on the right Colonel Millner’s “Mac”.  Colonel Millner is known for his book he wrote in 1924.  

The other picture is an illustration of 8 generations head study and showing persistence of type of the famous Rheola Setters, starting with Champion Winifred in 1898 till champion Rheola Bryndona in 1928.  These Rheola dogs were very famous, but somewhere, showing an 8 generations persistence in type illustrates that there was also certain focus on “aesthetics”.  Another picture is the one of the famous “T” litter of Twoacres Setters many years later where we clearly see the slow evolution to a certain uniformity in type, which is on itself not automatically a bad thing.  

So, because of all these elements in the late 19th century, and especially the fact that the Red & White did not have any official support, he remained in the anonymity and - very important! – was not influenced by the effects of popularity and did not loose anything of it’s own authentic identity.

I would like to show a very nice picture of a Red & White which was printed on a postcard in the year 1907.  

The Red & White would maybe have died out, but there was in the early 1900’s a certain Reverend Noble Huston from Bally Na Hinch who continued breeding Red & Whites, together with Mr. Elliott ( “Eldron” ) and who exhibited Red & Whites already in 1896.  They bred exclusively Red & Whites and kept the breed alive with dogs of very high quality and with some connections with the famous Rossmore family who had a real Red & White tradition for about 300 years.  The dogs of Rev. N. Huston had Rossmore blood indeed.  In the pedigree of Jack of Glenmaquin the connection with Glen of Rossmore is very clear, being the son of The Brigadier.  This document is a copy of the original handwritten pedigree by Mr. Cuddy.

All these Bally Na Hinch dogs of Rev. N. Huston which are mentioned in the ‘big pedigree’  are to be found in that pedigree.  All this covers a period from about 1900 till about 1935/1940.

 

Red and Whites in France

( “ de Forsac ” )

((  Just a notice for our French participants on this conference :  The Comte de Montbron, in France, must have had somewhere connections with the Rossmore family who had hunting grounds on the isle Arran, in front of the British coast and not so far from Scotland.  It’s known that Comte Robert de Montbron got Red & Whites in France which originated from that part of Scotland where the Rossmores were not so far away, because Robert de Montbron was often in Scotland when he was a young man of 20 – 30 years. It was in the second half of the 19th century.  There have been real true Red & Whites in France, and Robert de Montbron bred Red & Whites in France under his kennel name “ de Forsac”.  They were regularly seen at shows in France, but as the breed was not known, they called them  “ des Setters Écossais”.  On the exhibition of Paris in 1908 there were six males and 2 bitches Red & Whites - “ Setters Écossais ” - of  ‘de Forsac ’ breeding and Favori de Forsac got first prize.  But as there were only a few of these Red & Whites, they have been mixed later on with other breeds in France.  There are some pictures of the dogs of Comte de Montbron, and again, they show that typical rustic outlook of a handsome hunting dog  . 

  But Rev. N. Huston was almost alone in breeding Red & Whites, and one day also he would stop breeding, and the existence of the authentic Red & White was in great danger again.

But there was a certain Mrs. Cuddy, who took the work over from Rev. N. Huston.  She found in 1940 a young bitch, Judith Cunningham of Knockalla, and as she was in connection with Rev. N. Huston, she bred with that bitch.  The sire was Jack of Glenmaquin, and that very old Red & White blood was saved.  That litter was so good that Rev. N. Huston proposed to use first a good Irish Red Setter on his own opal and to go back with the results of that litter to Mrs. Cuddy’s litter.

This was again an illustration of that old traditional Irish Setter breeding, Reds and Red & Whites being one big family: no wonder that Mrs. Cuddy said, when I asked her what difference there was between a Red and a Red & White : “ Young man, what do you mean?  There is only one Irish Setter ! ”

Mrs. Cuddy continued the work of  Rev. N. Huston  and bred under her affix ‘Knockalla’ many real true, authentic Red & Whites, such as for example Jennifer, Diana, Jeremy, Felicity of Knockalla, and in these years a Red & White Club was founded ( 1944 ).

JENNIFER OF KNOCKALLA

But it was the time of the second world war, and after the war everybody was occupied restoring their own breeds and there was no time, no money nor interest for the Irish Red & White Setter.  It went down again till that point that around 1965 there were only 16-18 real true Red & Whites left in Ireland.

And Mrs. Cuddy made again an attempt to revive the Irish Red & White Setter.  This attempt was the good and decisive one,  AND MOST IMPORTANT,  because this attempt was made by a breeding programme in connection with the Irish Red Setter Club, using Irish Red Setters in order to enlarge breeding and development possibilities for the Irish Red & White Setter.  This happened at the end of the years 1960 and in the years 1970.  It’s also most important to understand it on the right way because in many cases it has led to misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

In other words, let’s come to the point:

Mrs. Cuddy looked around to find suitable stock for her revival programme and found it.  She wrote her findings in what is called the“Statement to the Irish Kennel Club” and which has been officially accepted by the Irish Kennel Club.  It gives the situation in the years 1950-1960.

The man who had also a key position in that “revival programme” ( also called ‘the outcross programme’ ) for the Irish Red & White Setter was  MR. JOHN NASH  ( “Moanruad” ),  who was in that time the Secretary of the Irish Red Setter Club, and who was worldwide known for the hunting/trial quality of his Red Setters, with over 50 Field Trial Champions, which was – and still is I believe – an absolute world record.

Mr. Nash wrote in a letter to me, dated 27th of January 1988 : “ Yes, the Red & White would NOT be there at all, but for me, I kept it alive, single handed, for over 20 years when no one, most of all the Irish Kennel Club, wanted to know ”.

What follows now and what I will show is not at all an explanation of a lot of pedigrees, but a simple scheme I made of a general survey of the principle, the essence of how that outcross programme should be seen and how it was possible to bring the authentic Red & White back.  I speak about that Red & White which has not been influenced by all that popularity of the 20th century.   It’s most important because exactly here, at that outcross programme, so many misunderstandings and misinterpretations all over the world have seen the light.

The result of Mrs. Cuddy’s research was as follows :

One of Mrs. Cuddy’s litters was the one out off Jeremy of Knockalla  x  Felicity of Knockalla. 

In that litter there were SHOT, SHERRY I and WHISKEY.  All pure Red & Whites.

SHOT ( dog ) and SHERRY I ( bitch ) belonged to Mr. Mc Andrews.

1.  On one side, there was a mating SHOT ( RW )  x   JUNE ( RED )

      One of the puppies was NELL ( RED )

      That NELL ( RED ) was mated by SHOT ( RW ), so a father - daughter combination.

      From SHOT ( RW )   x   NEL ( RED )  came   WAYDOWN  SANDY  ( RED ).

 

Mr. John Nash bought Waydown Sandy as a puppy from Mr. Mc Andrews.  This was in 1961. Waydown Sandy was a Red Setter with white blaze and white paws, and of course, being the result of a father – daughter combination, carrying very strongly the Red & White factor.

 John Nash  had a litter from Waydown Sandy ( Red )  x   Rahard Belle ( Red ),  and this gave the so well known PATRICIA OF KILLONE ( Red ) and MOANRUAD  DAN ( Red ).

 PATRICIA OF KILLONE was mated to  BALLIMAC EAGLE ( Red ) and this gave MOANRUAD KERRYGOLD ( Red ).

 MOANRUAD AMARILA ( Red ), who was a daughter of Patricia of Killone and  Crosse Elm ( red ), was mated to Moanruad Kerrygold and gave MOANRUAD  BRENDAN.

John Nash said in the interview I had with him that the Red & White factor was so strong, that he often had Red & Whites in his litters.  In fact, not surprising when you see that the Red & White factor came from Father-Daughter combination.  All these Moanruad Red Setters carried very strongly the Red & White factor, and this does not only mean the colour, but also the Red & White conformation and spirit.  Even some Moanruad Red Setters  had the conformation of a Red & White.  Moanruad Brendan for example was such a Red Setter.

2. On the other side, there was again that SHOT with exclusively Red & White progeny:

SHERRY I  was mated to her brother SHOT, which gave SHERRY  II ( bitch ) and she was mated to FINN, who was about ½ Red ½ Red & White and who was a son of Waydown Sandy who was the son of Shot  x  Nell in father-daughter combination.  The mother of Finn was Biddy of Slievebawn (‘Belle’) ( Red ).

This mating gave CHARLAVILLE BEAUTY ( RW ) and RUSTY (RW ) ( Mr. Ruan ).

And in the litter from Jeremy of Knockalla  x  Felicity of Knockalla there was also WHISKEY ( RW ), who made a litter with Mr. FOX’S BITCH ( RW ) which gave DUCHESS.  Duchess was mated by Rusty which gave Mrs. Cuddy’s GAYE OF KNOCKALLA ( RW ).

This was the global situation that Mrs. Cuddy found when she wanted to revive the breed.  These Moanruad Red Setters, carrying so strongly the Red & White factor, were used in the outcross programme together with the progeny of Mrs. Cuddy’s Red & Whites.  In fact, all these dogs were related to each other and went directly back to Mrs. Cuddy’s own Knockalla Red & White breeding.  All these dogs , Reds and Red & Whites were very close to each other.  No wonder that real true Red & Whites appeared again when outcrosses were made.

I show a picture of John Nash with 3 Red Setters.  The dog on the right side of the picture is Patricia of Killone with the typical “Irish spotting” which means white blaze, white breast and white on paws. 

I also show Charlaville Beauty.  Look at that general appearance which is athletic rather than racy.  John Nash liked her very much. He gave her to Mr. Dermot Mooney.  

CHARLAVILLE  BEAUTY

In that outcross programme following dogs can be found :

Patricia of Killone, Moanruad Kerrygold, Moanruad Brendan, Moanruad Stardust, Moanruad Jerry, Moanruad Glenkeen Penny, Moanruad Keen Girlie, Moanruad Nestor.

Also some Red Setters of Rev. Canon Doherty were used, such as Tony I, Bran II, Shot II.  Also these dogs carried the Red & White factor.

This is a general survey of the situation at that time.  Let’s now translate the whole thing into pedigrees like they are set out by Kennel Clubs:

As example I have taken the pedigree of a Red & White, born in 1978, at the period when that outcross programme still was running.  It’s the pedigree of Winnowing Grouse, bred by Mr. Dermot Mooney.

On itself, there is nothing special;  This is a pedigree of an Irish Red & White Setter, and that’s it.  But breeders, especially newcomers, or other people who are interested in the breed, and going back in the pedigrees of their dogs, will discover a very similar background, not exactly the same of course, but something similar with the same dogs every time coming back.  And they will discover something very strange : almost all these dogs are Red Setters.

And that’s the reason of so many misinterpretations, misunderstandings and even wilful perversion for defending strange practices, this all on international level.  We have seen and heard the most ridiculous theories and imaginations, for something which is in fact so simple.

When looking at this pedigree, it’s so dangerous, with some goodwill, to think that Red & Whites are coming from Red Setters, or to understand that Reds and Red & Whites are all exactly the same.  If this was so, there would not have been a separate breed standard.

Irish Red & White Setters do not come from Irish Red Setters.  Irish Red & White Setters are coming from Irish Red & White Setters.

Concerning the Irish Red & White Setter, these particular Moanruad Red Setters were in fact only the carriers, the “postmen” who were able to deliver Red & Whites with the help of other Red & Whites!  John Nash kept the breed in his Red Setters during almost 20 years and gave it back!  For understanding these pedigrees,  one should know the backgrounds and the real story of all these Red Setters, and this is to be seen in that very simple scheme I made.  Our Red & Whites are coming from Mrs. Cuddy’s Red & Whites which came from Rev. N. Huston’s Red & Whites, etc…The Moanruads just kept the breed for a while.

Looking backwards to all this, that was in fact the role of the Irish Red Setter during that outcross programme.

There has been later on again such a programme, but maybe 95 % of all Red & Whites all over the world are coming from that first and most important programme.  That programme of Mrs. Cuddy and Mr. John Nash has been THE REAL DECISIVE programme which made it possible to bring the real true authentic Red & White back.

I show some pictures we took in Ireland of Irish Red & Whites which were the direct result of these outcross programme :

Winnowing  Breeze, Rushfield Whin, Ir. Ch. Pride of Erne, Lough Erne Lady, Lough Erne Vanity, Mrs. Cuddy’s George, Lough Erne Blaze, Claddagh Lady, Lough Erne Lady  ( from  the dog’s other side ), Ir. Champion Meudon Blaze, Ir. Champion Mounteagle Belle.

           

                       WINNOWING BREEZE           RUSHFIELD WHIN              PRIDE  OF  ERNE            LOUGH ERNE VANITY        LOUGH ERNE BLAZE       LADDAGH LADY

                                   ( 13,5 years )                              ( 9 years )

 

 LOUGH ERNE LADY    

( both sides )

 

 

 Mrs. CUDDY & her dog GEORGE 

 

 

           

On the left : MEUDON BLAZE   -   On the right :  MOUNTEAGLE BELLE  

As I said already in this speech, slowly during the last century there has been a development of two different conceptions within the Irish Red Setter world.  On one side the show people and show setter, on the other side  the trial people and the trial setter.  During the last decades the Red Setter turned in some cases out into extreme proportions, and this on both sides.

The Irish Red & White Setter kept it’s own identity like he has always been, and therefore, when he was recognized, he was considered as another, a second breed of Irish Setter. These outcross programmes were very strict and an exceptional permission  given by the Irish Kennel Club. 

The FCI Breed Standard says clearly in it’s historical summary : ‘ It is not very well known outside of Ireland that there are two breeds of Irish Setter’.

Mrs. Cuddy said “ There is only one Irish Setter”, and she was for the full 100 % right of course.  But when I look on one side to the exaggerated differences within today’s Red Setters – on both sides we could even think about ‘breeds within the breed’ – and on the other side the unchanged Red & White,  I would maybe dare to say : “ There should have been only one Irish Setter”.

But on this conference, I would like to say :  “ Although there can be some differences in type or in height ( the breed standard is very clear about that ) : there must be only one Irish Red & White Setter, the one of former centuries, the one of the Rossmore family, the one of Rev. N. Huston, the one of Mrs. Cuddy’s breeding, and finally the one we all must have nowadays, and this in the working world as well as in the show world. ”  

It’s nowadays not evident, when it exceptionally happens to see Red & White offspring in a Red Setter litter, to think that these puppies are real Red & White Setters.  The influence of the Red Setter, which had it’s own development, is too pronounced for still having real Red & Whites from red parents.  The result can only be a red Setter with unfortunately a wrong colour, and mixing a Red Setter with a Red & White does certainly not give automatically real Red & Whites !  It’s of course not allowed, but some people somewhere in the world with much imagination insist on their right.  Even John Nash, whose dogs carried so strongly the Red & White factor,  said in the interview I had with him : “ But yes, it’s true, I must recognize, because of that outcross programme and the intensive use of reds during that period, some Red & Whites show Red Setter characteristics ”.

Nowadays, there is no role at all any more of the Irish Red Setter within Red & Whites, except maybe, if it would be necessary, in the Country of Origin.

The outcross programmes were very strict, controlled and a most serious, important thing.  There is nowadays no place at all for a circus !!

 

 

 It’s internationally known that I bought 2 of such puppies from red parents in 1992, one dog and one bitch.  The parents were direct descendants of these Moanruads used for the outcross programme.  One day after their birth, the breeder contacted me asking if I would maybe be  interested.  And the next day, I phoned to Mrs. Cuddy.  I sent the pedigree of the parents to her, and as I could be interested, she gave after having seen the pedigrees her support in trying to have some registration for them, because I had a fair chance, with selective breeding with good Red & Whites, I could have some very interesting and suitable stock for the future. And I had some good Red & Whites.  And after having made a whole dossier, I received registration with a B-status.  I was more than happy with a B-status and I found it fair enough.

I had  many long phone calls with Mrs. Cuddy.  It must be said that Mrs. Cuddy did not only have a 50 years experience with the real knowledge she received from all these former famous breeders.  Mrs. Cuddy was also University schooled, and had studied Genetics at the Dublin University.  In other words, she really knew what she was talking about!  

So, Mrs. Cuddy supported the case, but at the same time she also informed me with emphasis about a growing problem within these Red Setters. I did not realize on that moment what this exactly could be of course.   But also John Nash himself must have known something, because he spoke about it with Mr.  Peter Heard after a trial in Stradbally where Mr. Heard was judge.  He said he worried about the fact that his dogs became smaller and smaller.

I bought these 2 puppies;  the dog was Pallasgreen Ambition, the bitch Pallasgreen Athena.  They grew up and very remarkable : the dog, at the age of 5-6 months, stopped growing and remained really very small :  57 cm, which is the minimum for bitches.  For the rest he was about in proportion and strong.  After some time, he also showed, always on totally unexpected moments and even in his sleep, symptoms of extreme aggression.  Most probably that dog had a tumour in the brain.  So because of these two reasons I went to the vet to finish it.  Most probably, even without that brain matter, I would never have bred with it, because of that growing fault.  

The bitch, Athena was ok.  I can describe her as “acceptable” for a Red & White.  The colour was correct. 

 PALLASGREEN  ATHENA  

But I would like to inform that not only the outlook of Reds and Red & Whites differ, but also the spirit, which is most important but not seen in a show ring.  The historical summary of the FCI Breed Standard says that the Red & White is calmer than the Red Setter, and Athena did not have a Red & White spirit which shows more reliable determination than the Red Setter.  What I also found very strange, is the fact that Athena, although she came from very good trial dogs, did not have any sense for hunting !!  She was a very gentle bitch like there are many dogs in the world.  Nothing more, nothing less.

But I wanted to give a chance to that particular opportunity, and I bred from her.  I had 2 litters,  each litter from another Red & White and most of the puppies became good Red & Whites and some of them had successes in the field , although they still are not exactly like it can be expected from good Red & Whites.  Differences in spirit are still there.  Their general behaviour, their way of thinking is not exactly like in Red & Whites.

 

 A son of Pallas Green Athena  

( Sired by Excl.  Scampe

At home, we do not have kennels.  The dogs live together, bitches and dogs separated.  If there are troubles between the dogs, which happens everywhere of course,  it has always to do with Athena’s children.  It’s certainly not a question of any form of aggression, but only because Athena’s children and our other Red & Whites do not always understand each other, because they do not always think on the same way.

After 12 years since Athena’s birth, we are not able yet to make any reliable conclusions.  Therefore we need 2 more generations.  

But one thing is sure, :  Nowadays, outside Ireland, Red & Whites from red parents, or combinations Red  x  Red & White do not give true Red & Whites.  They can occasionally give parti-coloured Setters, but not true Irish Red & White Setters. Some generations, much patience and knowledgeable selection would be needed.  In other words, for all those who could occasionally have that kind of ambitions, it’s very simple : just forget it!  Those remarkable Moanruads with very close parentage to the Irish Red & White Setters are gone!

I hope all this will be significant for all Authorities responsible for setting out pedigrees!

I would like to thank you all for the courage you had to listen to me for such a long time.

Thank you very much!